Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

301 points - today at 10:47 AM

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amoshebb today at 2:42 PM
I could only find 4 names:

1 full prof at Vanderbilt with a real research program who has been listed as PI on a bunch of grants. "Top researcher" may be generous, but based on nothing I'd say reasonable description.

The other 3: 1 is a VU Amsterdam PhD who was on a Netherlands Government funded 24-month postdoc in Harvard who's been at VU Amsterdam since 2017. 1 is an adjunct (on leave) prof from Israel who has worked at a few german universities, most recently an Munster (doesn't qualify for the 30% rule). The last resigned over a year ago and has been contracting at a couple UK universities.

This seems less like "Top researchers leave USA" and more like "Typical Academic Bag Chasing"

jesdo today at 12:07 PM
Great initiative, and good to see that it has an effect. I'm a bit sceptical about the available funds. 1 million over 5 years is a nice starting package (4+ PhD students), but the availability of overall research grant money in the Netherlands has been under pressure for years and is difficult to acquire. Researchers moving here may find it difficult to acquire further grant money compared to US, at least in CS.
andsoitis today at 2:08 PM
That's not a truthful translation of the article's headline, BTW.

More correct would be "First international scientists to the Netherlands via the Tulip Fund", which is a far cry from the title as submitted.

mnky9800n today at 2:30 PM
I apologise if this is overly negative. It is based on my experience working as a soft money researcher (my own grants) at a Dutch university. My opinions may not be shared.

In my experience The Netherlands is a rather unsupportive place to do research. There is essentially no money from the government that will pay salaries in full, especially early career salaries (vini, vidi, vici). I have had friends win ERC grants (millions in euros) that were fired as a result because there was not a space in the department to hire them full time (Dutch work law requires contracts to become permanent after a certain number of years of working). Departments also seem to have glass ceilings for non Dutch. Researchers are often given large teaching commitments that cannot be bought out with grants. University incubators seem to be better suited to let professors pretend to be start up founders then actual innovation centers. I have tried on multiple occasions to engage the local incubator and have always been run around. Yet local Dutch have no issues. The rules seem to be different for Dutch than for foreigners. A foreign colleague was offered a lucrative consulting contract (a normal thing for successful professors at other universities). The Dutch university he was at refused to let him take it except under the understanding the money would be entirely consumed by the university and he would receive no compensation for bringing in private money even though he would be doing all of the work. Meanwhile the Dutch colleague in the next office was allowed to start a private consulting agency through the local incubator and spend as much time as he wanted working in the start up. The universities publish reports how progressive they are by evaluating professors on teaching and outreach meanwhile having internal department expectations of PhD students to publish at least four first author papers or are not allowed to graduate (on four year contracts with one year full time teaching commitment). In my experience it is rare that PhD students finish on time. As one adminstrator told me, ā€œuniversity promoters are more interested in promoting their careers then their PhD studentsā€ (promoter is the word used for the adviser). The universities also disallow working outside of typical hours and there is no ability to work in your own office on the weekends. Also, recently they defended against this, but it will come up again, the government has discussed changing the tax law such that startup shares will have real world value so new valuations become taxable events.

This all is not atypical to universities world wide. But in the Netherlands I have not found a place that made me feel like I could work to the best of my ability and at the cutting edge. This is unfortunate. It’s nice to live here but I’m leaving to go to greener pastures.

cdash today at 12:05 PM
This title is such clickbait. All the article talks about is a Dutch fund created to recruit scientists and they have successfully recruited them. At 1 million euros per head.
goldenarm today at 11:57 AM
The US is accidentally conducting Operation Paperclip but in reverse. Who will benefit the most from it, China or Europe ?
luma today at 12:05 PM
This reads more like The Netherlands hopes to bribe US researchers into moving to the Netherlands.
duxup today at 4:19 PM
Is there money available to absorb more than a handful of these types of people and their research and related costs?
dwa3592 today at 1:18 PM
Actually there are many such headlines, just replace the Netherlands with [China, Singapore, Australia, India].
neuronexmachina today at 2:11 PM
Official page for the Tulip Fund: https://www.nwo.nl/en/calls/tulip-fund
larodi today at 2:48 PM
And then Dutch-Americans leave for Bulgaria and Romania .) occasionally Croatia
adam_beck today at 12:02 PM
Top researchers in what?
loorke today at 4:37 PM
Wishful thinking
Z4cki today at 2:29 PM
How did you find this out? Not sure if its true!
mbmbn today at 2:54 PM
This title is very misrepresentative of the actual article.

This is an article about initiatives to attract scientists to the Netherlands, not about some supposed ongoing brain drain.

HelloUsername today at 12:14 PM
cactusplant7374 today at 12:05 PM
Hopefully it isn't lithography researchers.
blastonico today at 1:14 PM
Who are those "top" researchers? and how many?
gtsnexp today at 12:26 PM
[flagged]
lifestyleguru today at 1:16 PM
They are going to live in Netherlands where? In what housing?

Maybe Europe will engage the top American intellectual power into ejecting the real estate prices into orbit.

deleted today at 12:09 PM
drstewart today at 12:33 PM
Will they be exempt from providing ID to post on the internet or nah?
greenavocado today at 12:14 PM
The article has failed to prove that anybody has taken the bait and left.

> For the researcher, the qualities must, from an international perspective, far exceed what is customary within the international peer group. The institution receives a maximum of €1 million per researcher for the next five years.

Let's be generous and assume you are one of the chosen ones. Your institution will take 20% off the top leaving with you 1millionƗ.80/5 or 160k EUR per year.

After income taxes, your take home pay is €90,868.00 or $103k USD. Not bad for the average man, but not good for a top researcher like they want.

EUR 160k works out to about $182,640. For that level of income in a top tier institution in a state with an income tax like Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, MD you would take home $121,565, or 15% more.

https://thetax.nl/?income=160000&startFrom=Year&selectedYear...

Herring today at 12:08 PM
America is like a trust fund baby given all the advantages and then the baby goes "fuck it, life is too hard, I am just going to do coke and die earlyā€.
blueaquilae today at 12:06 PM
Experts in flies reproduction leave fro Netherlands.
mono442 today at 12:02 PM
Isn't much of the science work just taking money for doing basically nothing? I don't think that is a loss for the us.